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11991 Posts in 1587 Topics- by 3509 Members - Latest Member: lioneltenel

27. May 2012, 03:04:00 am
Xith3D CommunityGeneral CategoryGeneral Discussion (Moderators: Marvin Fröhlich, 'n ddrylliog)Airport Model -> Animation
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AirportTools
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« on: 29. January 2008, 08:40:40 pm »

Hi,

I have an old Java 3D application which I'm toying with "upgrading" in the near future. 

I just wanted to get some feedback on whether I should aim for a total re-write or should I try to use Xith3D as one component of my beefing up of the program.

You can view a demonstration of the program at:

http://www.airporttools.com/apecs/a3d/index.html

An explanation of the program is as follows:

The program animates the results from an FAA fast-time simulation model.  In general, each result set is completely different in respect to 4D paths (XYZ, and time) taken by aircraft.

Each airport simulated by the FAA model is different as well.  Thus, the runway definitions from airport A are obviously different from the runway definitions from airport B.

So essentially, other than aircraft models, virtually nothing is fixed.

Immediate areas of concern include:

- FPS.  The demo above is not truly indicative of the FPS since the animation grabber program sucked up a lot of CPU cycles.  But, I'm still not happy with FPS. 

Do you think Xith3D will produce noticeable FPS improvements over Java3D?  Any guesses on the percentage (10%, 30%, 50%, 100%)?

- Terrain.  The program must be configurable to a WIDE variety of different real-life airports.  Thus, each of my users will have a completely different set of taxiways, runways, gate aprons, and grassy island areas.

I would like to provide texture's to the various components noted above.  As an example, I would expect some combination of concrete, grass, snow, sand, and asphalt surfaces to be necessary.

When triangulating these various terrain components will Xith3D hold up well to larger airports which perhaps have hundreds of individual taxiways, grass islands, etc.?

Is there an alternative to triangulating a polygon and then applying a texture that I'm not familiar with which should be investigated?

Since I've been so long winded I'll cut my note short now.

Thanks,

Greg

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Marvin Fröhlich
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« Reply #1 on: 29. January 2008, 11:02:57 pm »

I just wanted to get some feedback on whether I should aim for a total re-write or should I try to use Xith3D as one component of my beefing up of the program.

This question is really hard to answer without any deeper knowledge of your source. As a rule of thumb I would say: If you're not happy with your coding, you should consider a rewrite. If you are happy with it, could try to port it. But I don't understand, what you mean about "one component". Xith3D should provide tools for nearly everything you will need for an application like this.

You can view a demonstration of the program at:

http://www.airporttools.com/apecs/a3d/index.html

Had a look at the video. Looks like low poly.

Do you think Xith3D will produce noticeable FPS improvements over Java3D?  Any guesses on the percentage (10%, 30%, 50%, 100%)?

Yes, I do definitely. But since I haven't directly compared the two in the last time, I cannot tell you any percentage numbers.
But I can tell you, that we did some comparing benchmarks about one and a half year ago with Xith3D vs. jMonkeyengine vs. Java3D, where Xith3D and Java3D were about equally fast and jMonkeyEngine was a bit faster. Well, jME has been tuned as well as Xith3D has. Don'T know about Java3D. But now Xith3D is by far faster than jME. So I would expect it to be even more faster than Java3D.

But you should first port or rewrite your program to/in Xith3D and then ask here on the board about some optimizations to be used/enabled, which will gain a lot of performance.

- Terrain.  The program must be configurable to a WIDE variety of different real-life airports.  Thus, each of my users will have a completely different set of taxiways, runways, gate aprons, and grassy island areas.

Well, Xith3D has a terrain implementation, which is already working quite well. But it is still work in progress, so the API will change to a more integrated one in the future.

I would like to provide texture's to the various components noted above.  As an example, I would expect some combination of concrete, grass, snow, sand, and asphalt surfaces to be necessary.

Hmmm, this should be the smallest problem.

When triangulating these various terrain components will Xith3D hold up well to larger airports which perhaps have hundreds of individual taxiways, grass islands, etc.?

When the scene gets really big, you should consider using some advanced tree structure to improve performance, but that's something, that you should worry about at a later time.

Is there an alternative to triangulating a polygon and then applying a texture that I'm not familiar with which should be investigated?

Well, there's only some kind of "advanced triangulation", which uses strips of triangles (triangle-strips). This can also be combined with indexed geometry. If your geometries are good for being strippified, you should use it as well as indexing to save video memory.

Marvin
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« Reply #2 on: 29. January 2008, 11:09:17 pm »

Hi Greg,

Welcome to Xith3D!

I can relate to you in some ways.  I originally had my game as a Java3D application, but I switched to Xith for 2 reasons: 1) extremely good support provided by Marvin Frohlich, Amos Wenger, and the rest of the team, and 2) all the extra features that Xith is jam-packed with.

I can answer some, but not all, of your concerns:

FPS:  Xith can easily get higher FPS rates than Java3D - a lot higher.  In fact, just recently there have been tons of performance and FPS boosts made by Marvin (see here:http://xith.org/forum/index.php/topic,799.0.html) that show that FPS is really, really good (and getting better).  As for FPS when many triangles are involved, you can still get very good FPS.  I would encourage you to use NetBeans or Eclipse, check out the current SVN source of the xith3d and xith-tk projects, and run the tests under org.xith3d.benchmarks.

Mathias Henze's Terrain implementation can generate height map terrain based on a grayscale image, and you can apply your own colors using a colored image.  You may want to look at and run TerrainTest4 and TerrainTest5 in xith-tk.  While the terrain implementation does not currently support multiple textures, this would not be hard to implement.

EDIT: Haha, looks like our amazing Marvin has already beaten me to the punch.  Told you we had fast support.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: 29. January 2008, 11:36:51 pm »

EDIT: Haha, looks like our amazing Marvin has already beaten me to the punch.

Well, I might have been faster at posting. But your posting is certainly worth more than mine, since it contains more precise information regarding the initial questions Smiley. Thanks a lot for providing additional support.

Marvin
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AirportTools
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« Reply #4 on: 30. January 2008, 08:07:59 pm »

Marvin and Kukanani,

Thank you so much for your insights.

Quote
But I don't understand, what you mean about "one component".

My "one component" thought concerns whether I should totally switch to a totally different set of components such as a combination of Purely OpenGL and C++ and perhaps some 3rd party commercial model loaders rather than Java3D and Java and my own model loader (DXF only at the moment).

Quote
But you should first port or rewrite your program to/in Xith3D and then ask here on the board about some optimizations to be used/enabled, which will gain a lot of performance.

I'm planning on doing exactly that.

It's nice to hear that Java plus 3D/OpenGL implementations are progressing.  I am looking forward to trying them out.
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Marvin Fröhlich
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« Reply #5 on: 30. January 2008, 09:01:44 pm »

Quote
But I don't understand, what you mean about "one component".

My "one component" thought concerns whether I should totally switch to a totally different set of components such as a combination of Purely OpenGL and C++ and perhaps some 3rd party commercial model loaders rather than Java3D and Java and my own model loader (DXF only at the moment).

I have some limited C/C++ knowledge. But from what I can tell you it is very hard to write, debug and optimize a C++ program. And it is on the other hand very simple in Java. And I would strongly disadvise the direct use of OpenGL instead of a scenegraph, since you would have to reinvent the wheel to get the performance out of it, which you want. Using a scenegraph with advanced performance optimizations like Xith3D's one makes it very easy to get a well performing system with very few lines of code.

About you DXF loader: Is it open source? Could you maybe ofer it to the Xith3D community to be integrated in JAGaToo and Xith3D? Would be very cool.

I'm planning on doing exactly that.

Cool.

Marvin
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AirportTools
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« Reply #6 on: 30. January 2008, 11:14:14 pm »

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About you DXF loader: Is it open source? Could you maybe ofer it to the Xith3D community to be integrated in JAGaToo and Xith3D?

Marvin, in principle I would be happy to "donate" the DXF loader.  But, there are some aspects to a donation I would prefer to discuss offline, if possible, since I believe a majority of what I have to say is fairly off-topic.

I'll drop you a personal message....
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Marvin Fröhlich
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« Reply #7 on: 30. January 2008, 11:15:07 pm »

ok
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Marvin Fröhlich
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« Reply #8 on: 31. January 2008, 05:48:12 pm »

Did you send me a PM? I didn't get one?

Marvin
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